FILE. “The Mazan rape trial will be a turning point,” says Bibia Pavard, historian of feminism

Bibia Pavard : “Les périodes de crise mettent au premier plan les figures masculines”. DR

Historian and teacher specializing in the history of women and gender, Bibia Pavard is co-author, with Florence Rochefort and Michelle Zancarini-Fournel, of the book “Don't Free Us, We'll Take Charge”, a history of feminism from 1789 to the present day, published by Éditions de La Découverte.

We know Olympe de Gouges, but who puts a face to Claire Lacombe from Ariège, another feminist heroine of the French Revolution? ? Who knows that Louis XVI received a delegation of women at Versailles? ? That Victor Hugo was a fervent defender of the feminist cause? ? That the explosion of the “Second Sex” was far from obvious when Simone de Beauvoir's book came out in 1949? ? Lecturer in history at the Panthéon Assas University in Paris, Bibia Pavard traces the often overlooked history of feminism and the recent history of the movement, in light of the MeToo revolution and the Mazan rape trial.

The word feminism, as you recall in “Ne nous libèrez pas, on s'en charge”, published in 2020, is born from a misunderstanding, it was first uttered in 1872 by Alexandre Dumas fils who was not a feminist…

Yes, it is an insult coined by Alexandre Dumas fils that refers to the men who defended equality between women and men at that time. Which shows that there were already men engaged on this issue.

It is very interesting and important to remember that at the time, we were in a debate on the issue of domestic violence, a case of femicide: a husband killed his adulterous wife, he was sentenced to five years in prison, it was exceptional, and Alexandre Dumas fils asked that he be exempted from punishment.

This story shows that the denunciation of specific violence that affects women is not just a contemporary story, and on the other hand, we are, from the outset, on something stigmatizing with regard to feminism.

Afterwards, it is something that has evolved in society. There are times of very strong mobilization, like now, when it becomes possible to call oneself a feminist, but one is not immune to attacks when one uses this term.

We cannot imagine to what extent the question of feminism has crossed history, over a long period of time, since the French Revolution of which we only remember one feminist woman, Olympe de Gouges.

Our work begins in the contemporary era, in 1789, in the context of the French Revolution and the application of democratic thought that allows us to think about equality, and the emergence of feminist mobilization.

Since then, there have been continuities, with the common thread of equality in all areas. In the professional sphere, it has always been a big question. On the subject of civil equality, with in the 18th and 19th centuries, a system of inequalities written into the law, which can be declined today, because we are no longer there, on the questions of the family, the couple, the distribution of household tasks… And finally the demand for access to political power.

There has been progress on equality, but also a persistence of forms of hierarchy: between men and women, but also in the “women group” if we look at racial and class inequalities… we need to have a cross-perspective to understand how this plays out at different historical moments.

“The question of slavery has been raised since the 18th century and concerns feminists”

From the beginning, the feminist question has been open to the world: with a particular look at slavery yesterday, today a concern for Afghan or Iranian women…

The question of colonies, and of slavery, has been raised since the 18th century and concerns feminists, it is being updated in permanence, it is true. There may have been ambiguities, with a promotion of colonialism to “liberate” women.

And then, feminist movements very quickly crossed national borders: in 1840, Flora Tristan went to Europe, to South America, Hubertine Auclert went to Algeria… links were immediately established with international feminist organizations, from the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th.

On the question of suffrage, for example, there are correspondences with English, Australian, European women… this is also what we see today with MeToo, and it is not new.

Why do we only remember a few names in this very rich history of feminism? ? Because history is poorly taught ?

This is something that has been a concern of feminists themselves. From the moment they mobilized, they became aware of the erasure of the names and struggles that had preceded them.

In the 1930s, Marguerite Durand opened a library in Paris that still exists, and remains a major place for the conservation of archives and works on feminism.

Why we don’t know these women ? Because, indeed, history and its teaching have been androcentric until very recently. It was only in the 1970s and 80s that women’s history as such began to be recognized within the historical discipline. And on the other hand, there is a lack of public recognition of these personalities. Many efforts have been made in recent years, particularly through institutional recognition, to promote what we could call a matrimony, by giving names to streets, metro stations, amphitheaters…

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The pantheonization of women has also been a major step forward. But we still have no feminist claimed in the Pantheon. Since 1989, feminists have been asking for Olympe de Gouges to be admitted to the Pantheon. There is still resistance because, also, feminists are not consensual.

“We are returning to a history centered on great men that makes women invisible”

Historical anecdotes are nevertheless fascinating to read: for example, you tell how during the French Revolution, women took a petition to Louis XVI… We are no longer in the history of feminism but in history pure and simple!

Yes, since the French Revolution, women have been involved in all revolutionary movements and these are not the figures that are highlighted in the historical narrative. The Mnémosyne association, founded in 2000, and which I chair today, has produced a textbook at Belin that aims to produce a mixed history and encourages teachers to take hold of it. We are on something very rich that needs to be transmitted, and there is a very strong demand from the younger generations.

But today, we are returning to a history centered on great men and on events that until recent history made invisible women who were excluded from power.

Does each battle won make us go further or are there back and forths in the conquest of new rights? ?

There is no linear progression in history. There are times when things go backwards, especially on the issue of rights. The 1930s and the Vichy regime were dark years for feminists.

This is what we call the “Backlash”, the “backlash”, to use the expression of the American journalist Susan Faludi, on the 1980s-90s in the United States.

And there are times when this expression is favored and finds relays. What we are experiencing today

“We are far from equal pay because we are touching on the entire social structure designed on a principle of male domination”

What are we experiencing today ?

We are still in this MeToo moment of very strong mobilization, which peaked in 2017: we have seen the emergence of many collectives, transversal organizations, the extension of feminist issues in political parties, the media, publishing… a very, very strong moment of circulation of feminist ideas and certain legislative advances.

But at the same time, significant forces of resistance, counter-movements, led to the election of Trump, whose speech is centered on questions of immigration, but also gender. He makes it a scarecrow in his very reactionary speech, it is at the heart of his political positioning. We see with the circulation of the term “wokiste” something that is at play around these questions of racial and gender discrimination, and it crystallizes very strong ideological oppositions.

As a historian, we know that moments of very strong mobilization “for” are also moments of mobilization “against”.

When you are a feminist, you are necessarily LGBTQIA +, you transcend all gender issues ?

No! Feminists perceive it as a threat to question the identity “woman”. We must put an “s” in feminism. If we have discussed everything that brings them together, there are many points of debate, at every moment. There are as many forces of division as there are forces of rapprochement. The “trans” question, today, is an issue that divides feminists. Like the question of secularism, or more specifically the veil, the question of intersectionality too, prostitution, pornography.

These divisions sometimes hamper mobilization. But they can also be overcome in certain specific contexts, around an issue that will bring people together. Today, the big issue that brings people together is the issue of violence. But these divisions are still there.

So, between the “Rosies” and the ecofeminists, it's not always the same fight ?

That's it.

“Trials are moments of collective reflection”

What was the greatest victory of feminists, the right to vote, which was very laborious in France ?

It's something central in political life. But we could also cite the right to contraception and abortion. And what is happening today is the redefinition of what we call violence against women.

We also have small victories that are perhaps less visible on professional legitimacy, work… even if we are very far from equal pay, because we are touching on the entire social structure thought on a principle of male domination, which must be rethought. This is why feminist movements in history are both reformist, to obtain laws, and revolutionary.

The Mazan rape trial is the foundation of something else, will there be an after Mazan like an after-MeToo ?

I think we are still in a MeToo moment, a long time around the representation and practices of sexist and sexual violence. This Mazan trial will be a turning point, a moment of political and intellectual crystallization on what rape culture is… trials are moments of collective reflection around the limits of what is acceptable or not.

We have talked a lot about the issue of violence by ordinary men, it raises the question of the ordinariness of sexist and sexual violence in our society. This is not something new. This is a question that feminists raised in the 70s. But today, we are in a phase of shifting sensibilities, we no longer accept what we accepted before.

Can we imagine the next struggles to come, in the current context of political instability? ?

What characterizes the period we are living in is the diversity and abundance of demands, modes of action, and collectives. The development of feminism on social networks has amplified the echo of these demands.

But periods of crisis bring male figures to the forefront. And we see the emergence of a masculinist discourse that was still very much in the minority a few years ago, we will have to see what becomes of it.

What is your definition of feminism ?

Individual and collective positions in favor of equality between women and men, which also aim to deconstruct stereotypes and gender norms.